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Radwaste
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Joined: 07 Aug 2007
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Location: Tank 43
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 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Sargbaby wrote: | | Quote: | | "You do not want Allah to command the killing of infidels and have that order followed with faithful glee." |
Allah wouldn't do that, but Mohammed would! He was another one, "speaking for God." |
Sarge, this may surprise you - especially if you can't recall my earliest days on the Forums - but we agree here.
This is because men have immediate issues pressing upon them which are far more important than anything else. And that's why I felt it necessary to write The Formation of Belief.
How easy it is to look into the night sky and imagine all sorts of reasons that stuff is there just for us! It's a small step to turn that into a means to manipulate others.
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Sargbaby
El Presidente de Nascar
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 13272
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| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Radwaste wrote: | | Sargbaby wrote: | | Quote: | | "You do not want Allah to command the killing of infidels and have that order followed with faithful glee." |
Allah wouldn't do that, but Mohammed would! He was another one, "speaking for God." |
Sarge, this may surprise you - especially if you can't recall my earliest days on the Forums - but we agree here.
This is because men have immediate issues pressing upon them which are far more important than anything else. And that's why I felt it necessary to write The Formation of Belief.
How easy it is to look into the night sky and imagine all sorts of reasons that stuff is there just for us! It's a small step to turn that into a means to manipulate others. |
Agreed! Just think, "men" have had these issues since the serpent appeared in Eden! Since then, so it seems, we've fairly well messed everything up! I only imagine peace after God cleans this place!
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""A man does what he must – in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures – and that is the basis of all human morality." W.C.
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blamin
Junior Member
Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 456
Location: Eastern Seaboard
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| Radwaste wrote: | | blamin wrote: | I�m not sure what religious/least religious nations have to do with how much Christians care, but maybe you can illuminate this mere shadow with your radioactive brilliance.
I can reaffirm that the supposition about how much Christians care cannot be supported.
I can also state with confidence that the largest atrocities, in terms of deaths, committed in the last century were committed by some of the least religious countries of the world. |
Well, just be careful with your assertions. First, you say "unsupportable", and then say examples are debatable. Show some rigor.
I am well familiar with the horrible failures and deliberate actions of Stalin and Mao, to cite just two who suppressed personal choice in religious matters with the insistence that they, or the State, should be the only focus of attention; I point nowadays to North Korea and the machinations of our own Federal government for examples of a tendency of the powerful to establish a cult of personality to aid them in achieving their aims.
That personality is important. We are raised with the expectation that someone will look out for us. When we note that our own Dad is mortal and must fail, eventually, that's unbearable. We must have a champion. To claim that the substitution of Stalin, for example, for Jesus is merely to assert a special pleading: to insist that because Stalin is alive and Jesus isn't, Stalin cannot be a religious figure. Poppycock. He was, the "father" of the State as Church.
But: just as crossing out "Jesus" and covering it with "Stalin" is undesirable, the converse doesn't make blind acceptance of religion desirable, either. Again, I call for logic. You do not want Allah to command the killing of infidels and have that order followed with faithful glee.
I also urge the abandonment of double standards. As you would use an argument to fend off the influence of Islam, use it everywhere.
Here's an interesting parallel for you. As Kim Jong-Il suppresses learning of other cultures, as Stalin suppressed learning in favor of cronies like Lysenko with disastrous results, as Pol Pot criminalized education in Cambodia...
...we have liars who back Intelligent Design, attacking schools and the sciences.
How easy it is to hate the accomplished and the learned! |
Quote: "Well, just be careful with your assertions. First, you say "unsupportable", and then say examples are debatable. Show some rigor."
Two different points, two different standards.
I agree with much of your post, but - my initial point was, those who wish to tear down religion should be careful when crying wolf over the dangers of religion; much of the time their fears are paranoid or overstated. And many times their stated reason for attacking religion becomes questionable when examined closely.
Quote – “the converse doesn't make blind acceptance of religion desirable, either. Again, I call for logic.”
Likewise those who don’t believe shouldn’t automatically assume all who do believe came to their conclusion blindly or illogically. It’s a favorite tactic of those who fancy themselves intellectuals, and it’s an assumption that can’t be proved. (Though it does make them feel all smug and superior – a kind of narcotic to pseudo-intellectuals)
On the Intelligent Design versus Evolution debate, I wasn’t addressing that issue, but I have followed it off and on over the years. I’m not nearly as knowledgeable as many in these forums, but I have observed a few things.
It appears that a majority of scientist support evolution. Exactly how much of a majority is hard to measure because many fear to openly speak out in opposition (much like the question of man-caused climate change, although that has started to change). And, those that bring up excellent and thoughtful problems with the science of evolution are often subjected to a prejudicial atmosphere, the “cherry picking” of their arguments, and ad hominem attacks. Frankly, it’s damn suspicious.
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I had noticed that both in the very poor and very rich extremes of society the mad were often allowed to mingle freely. Charles Bukowski
Last edited by blamin on Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:44 am; edited 2 times in total |
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blamin
Junior Member
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Posts: 456
Location: Eastern Seaboard
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:26 am Post subject: |
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| Radwaste wrote: | | How easy it is to look into the night sky and imagine all sorts of reasons that stuff is there just for us! It's a small step to turn that into a means to manipulate others. |
And that seems to be the problem many have with religion, or at least some religions.
But as long as you have people who lust for power, and as long as human beings allow emotion to be too large a factor in the decision making process, you’re going to have mass manipulation. Religion is just one of the tools used. If that tool isn’t available for use, another will be used, its happened more often than most realize, hell, it’s happening today, in this country.
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I had noticed that both in the very poor and very rich extremes of society the mad were often allowed to mingle freely. Charles Bukowski |
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Mac
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Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 3506
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Sargbaby wrote: | | Mac wrote: | | Sargbaby wrote: | | Mac wrote: | | Sargbaby wrote: | But here is the "clinker," Charlie, if God can appear in the form of a burning bush, couldn't He also appear as a woman?  [/color][/b] |
NO! Of course not. You must be an idiot.
God would NEVER portray himself as the weaker vessel and since the Bible is written from the perspective of patriarchal society, He would NEVER pretend to be a matriarch because women by His perspective are owned human beings by their husbands.
Your statement clanged to the floor as the clinker rang true.
Here. Let me turn that around so that you understand it fully. The "clinker" was your statement to Charlie and when that "clinker" fell and hit the floor it "clanked" loudly a loud flat sound that proved its worth. It rang out its worth flatly sounding.
That was the sound of your voice. |
Gald you can speak for God, Mac! |
You like to play..... "I know you are but what am I", idiot.
PKB, Sarge.
Every time you post a remark it is you who speaks FOR God. God is going to speak one day and knock you off your pedestal. What a mighty hard fall you will take Sarge.
Your problem is you have no humility. You speak with authority as if your words are absolute. They aren't and neither are you. |
After reading your comments several times, I've come to the conclusion your power of comprehension is totally absent. I do not speak for God, I speak about Him! Now, if you would read all your comments about God, and then compare them to mine, then tell me who is speaking for God. BTW, thanks for creating a pedestal for me, but I don't need it.
If you think I speak with authority and absolution here, you should have attended some of my Sunday School classes. You may have learned some things.
Finally, I have determined that you must be jealous, because you can't speak from your heart about what you have learned, or done in your life. If you don't like the way I write, simply don't read my posts. I don't have time for your illiterate perspectives, anyway. There are too many nice people here to keep jousting with someone who can't comprehend what he reads. Almmost forgot, go ahead and throw something up in rebuttal, but don't expect a reply! You would never understand it, anyway!
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You missed my entire point because of your hatred of the truth I have spoken about you. You can't detour around that truth by attacking me with the lies and suppositions you tell. Your weak minded responses tell on you Sarge.
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Everyone is entitled to my opinion and you don't even have to ask for it. |
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Radwaste
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 1629
Location: Tank 43
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| blamin wrote: | | Frankly, it’s damn suspicious. |
You will have to go a loooong ways to find any parallel to the outright lying going on in support of ID. That's why I started that thread.
Show your work. If you have a different explanation of events than these guys, then when, not if, you show your work, you will have a point.
Me - I have a hard time understanding how people who breed dogs, orchids and fruit flies will turn right around and say evolution doesn't happen. That's a major, "Duh-uhh" moment, there.
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Sargbaby
El Presidente de Nascar
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 13272
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Radwaste wrote: | | blamin wrote: | | Frankly, it’s damn suspicious. |
Me - I have a hard time understanding how people who breed dogs, orchids and fruit flies will turn right around and say evolution doesn't happen. That's a major, "Duh-uhh" moment, there. |
Good point!
_________________
""A man does what he must – in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures – and that is the basis of all human morality." W.C.
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Searcher
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Radwaste wrote: | | Searcher wrote: | | And the majority of the world doesn't believe in your particular brand of religion and the majority of people thought the earth was flat at one time and that the sun revolved around the earth. |
Sorry I am obsessive about this - but this is a myth generated entirely by Judeo-Christian theocrats and their ignorant followers.
Away from the influence of the religious in the eastern Mediterranean - whose residents thought themselves the reason for everything - the Earth's true shape and role was known as it is today.
Remember that. |
Ooooh Papa....I love it when you scold me. 
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Sargbaby
El Presidente de Nascar
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Searcher wrote: | | Radwaste wrote: | | Searcher wrote: | | And the majority of the world doesn't believe in your particular brand of religion and the majority of people thought the earth was flat at one time and that the sun revolved around the earth. |
Sorry I am obsessive about this - but this is a myth generated entirely by Judeo-Christian theocrats and their ignorant followers.
Away from the influence of the religious in the eastern Mediterranean - whose residents thought themselves the reason for everything - the Earth's true shape and role was known as it is today.
Remember that. |
Ooooh Papa....I love it when you scold me.
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I thought that was supposed to "Oooo Daddy?
_________________
""A man does what he must – in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures – and that is the basis of all human morality." W.C.
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Radwaste
Senior Member
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Posts: 1629
Location: Tank 43
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| Radwaste wrote: | | Sargbaby wrote: | | As usual,... |
...you're merely going to cry, "context", so that the deity you insist upon, who decided to kill everybody to rid the Earth of evil - and failed - can be represented in the light you want.
I don't blame you for that, but to misrepresent what you're doing is simply dishonest, intentional or not.
Well, here's your challenge. Take this phrase and explain it away - that it doesn't mean what it says:
Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
One at a time: explain how, in your religion, the Lord:
1) Does NOT form the light;
2) Does NOT form the darkness:
3) Does NOT make peace;
4) Does NOT create evil;
5) Does NOT do all these things.
In the process, tell me how you are supporting:
a) The existence of God™ as the - the only - "Creator";
b) Any approach to the idea that this deity is "omnipotent".
Now, if you want to say that Isaiah is wrong, go ahead. I have no problem with that, because there are a bunch of things in the Bible that are.
But if you've spent your entire life explaining away things or turning your head and saying "I believe!" when an uncomfortable thought occurs, it could be a real problem for you.
It is my experience that religious people have huge problems with definitions. For instance, OpenMinded wrote, in the thread, The Golden Compass- Killing God:
"For ever means a very long time. It doesn't always mean the exact amount of time wherever it is used. It sometimes refers to eternity and at other times refers to a temporary but long period of time."
This essentially means that OM means what he wants things to mean, no more, no less. I use definitions which stay put, so they can be tested, and I urge you to do the same. Otherwise, we'll all be over there with Bill Clinton debating the meaning of "is" - and not explaining a damned thing - while the religious look more and more like used-car salesmen. |
Where is the reply to this observation? Is this another thing The Faithful Duck?
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Sargbaby
El Presidente de Nascar
Joined: 28 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| Radwaste wrote: | | Radwaste wrote: | | Sargbaby wrote: | | As usual,... |
...you're merely going to cry, "context", so that the deity you insist upon, who decided to kill everybody to rid the Earth of evil - and failed - can be represented in the light you want.
I don't blame you for that, but to misrepresent what you're doing is simply dishonest, intentional or not.
Well, here's your challenge. Take this phrase and explain it away - that it doesn't mean what it says:
Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
One at a time: explain how, in your religion, the Lord:
1) Does NOT form the light;
2) Does NOT form the darkness:
3) Does NOT make peace;
4) Does NOT create evil;
5) Does NOT do all these things.
In the process, tell me how you are supporting:
a) The existence of God™ as the - the only - "Creator";
b) Any approach to the idea that this deity is "omnipotent".
Now, if you want to say that Isaiah is wrong, go ahead. I have no problem with that, because there are a bunch of things in the Bible that are.
But if you've spent your entire life explaining away things or turning your head and saying "I believe!" when an uncomfortable thought occurs, it could be a real problem for you.
It is my experience that religious people have huge problems with definitions. For instance, OpenMinded wrote, in the thread, The Golden Compass- Killing God:
"For ever means a very long time. It doesn't always mean the exact amount of time wherever it is used. It sometimes refers to eternity and at other times refers to a temporary but long period of time."
This essentially means that OM means what he wants things to mean, no more, no less. I use definitions which stay put, so they can be tested, and I urge you to do the same. Otherwise, we'll all be over there with Bill Clinton debating the meaning of "is" - and not explaining a damned thing - while the religious look more and more like used-car salesmen. |
Where is the reply to this observation? Is this another thing The Faithful Duck? |
Simple answer, Rad; Faith and belief!
_________________
""A man does what he must – in spite of personal consequences, in spite of obstacles and dangers and pressures – and that is the basis of all human morality." W.C.
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blamin
Junior Member
Joined: 06 May 2008
Posts: 456
Location: Eastern Seaboard
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| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Radwaste wrote: | | This essentially means that OM means what he wants things to mean, no more, no less. I use definitions which stay put, so they can be tested, and I urge you to do the same. |
Nonsense! Many words have different meanings, sometimes subtle – sometimes not, depending on the context in which they are used.
_________________
I had noticed that both in the very poor and very rich extremes of society the mad were often allowed to mingle freely. Charles Bukowski |
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bigmammal
Veteran
Joined: 08 Aug 2007
Posts: 2571
Location: Just this side of reality.
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| Posted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:46 am Post subject: |
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| Radwaste wrote: | | Radwaste wrote: | | Sargbaby wrote: | | As usual,... |
...you're merely going to cry, "context", so that the deity you insist upon, who decided to kill everybody to rid the Earth of evil - and failed - can be represented in the light you want.
I don't blame you for that, but to misrepresent what you're doing is simply dishonest, intentional or not.
Well, here's your challenge. Take this phrase and explain it away - that it doesn't mean what it says:
Isaiah 45:7: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."
One at a time: explain how, in your religion, the Lord:
1) Does NOT form the light;
2) Does NOT form the darkness:
3) Does NOT make peace;
4) Does NOT create evil;
5) Does NOT do all these things.
In the process, tell me how you are supporting:
a) The existence of God™ as the - the only - "Creator";
b) Any approach to the idea that this deity is "omnipotent".
Now, if you want to say that Isaiah is wrong, go ahead. I have no problem with that, because there are a bunch of things in the Bible that are.
But if you've spent your entire life explaining away things or turning your head and saying "I believe!" when an uncomfortable thought occurs, it could be a real problem for you.
It is my experience that religious people have huge problems with definitions. For instance, OpenMinded wrote, in the thread, The Golden Compass- Killing God:
"For ever means a very long time. It doesn't always mean the exact amount of time wherever it is used. It sometimes refers to eternity and at other times refers to a temporary but long period of time."
This essentially means that OM means what he wants things to mean, no more, no less. I use definitions which stay put, so they can be tested, and I urge you to do the same. Otherwise, we'll all be over there with Bill Clinton debating the meaning of "is" - and not explaining a damned thing - while the religious look more and more like used-car salesmen. |
Where is the reply to this observation? Is this another thing The Faithful Duck? |
Simple answer YES! Yes it is!
_________________
Quotes by Flipa have likely been changed to alter their meaning. He admitted it and it should be taken into account when reading his posts. See page 88:
http://forums.augusta.com/viewtopic.php?t=662&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=1305 |
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The Craggy Island Trio
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Joined: 09 Aug 2007
Posts: 1660
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| Posted: Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| blamin wrote: | | Radwaste wrote: | | This essentially means that OM means what he wants things to mean, no more, no less. I use definitions which stay put, so they can be tested, and I urge you to do the same. |
Nonsense! Many words have different meanings, sometimes subtle – sometimes not, depending on the context in which they are used. |
Father Dougal asks:
That reminds me, Ted, just when IS the new Tim Burton Alice in Wonderland coming out?
You know, the one with Alan Rickman as the Caterpillar...
Father Ted replies:
Don't know about Alice, but the above apologist seems to be running as fast as they can, just to stay in one place (the Sandcastle of Belief), just like the Red Queen (even though she's from The Looking Glass). And, that's not Van Valen's Red Queen, either.
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Father Jack: They lie in wait like wolves, the smell of blood in their nostrils. Waiting, interminably waiting, and then...
Father Dougal: [nodding] He's right, you know, Ted. |
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Radwaste
Senior Member
Joined: 07 Aug 2007
Posts: 1629
Location: Tank 43
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| Posted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 12:55 pm Post subject: |
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| blamin wrote: | | Radwaste wrote: | | This essentially means that OM means what he wants things to mean, no more, no less. I use definitions which stay put, so they can be tested, and I urge you to do the same. |
Nonsense! Many words have different meanings, sometimes subtle – sometimes not, depending on the context in which they are used. |
Focus.
I said, "I use definitions which stay put, so they can be tested, and I urge you to do the same."
That's not nonsense. Here's why.
Plenty of people duck into arguments about context to avoid a challenge to their ideas. That's plain cowardly, as well as dishonest - and so, I urge you to not do that when a challenge appears.
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